elvendoll

Something i was asked at a seminar yesterday. Are you jewish? do you consider yourself jewish? if you could choose to be or not to be jewish, would you be jewish? and finally, WHY would you choose to be jewish?

Answers like "i was raised...blah-blah, or i want to preserve..." do not count. why do you want to be jewish.

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ged.livejournal.com

What do you want to be when you grow up?

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abtarchive.livejournal.com

What are you in school for?

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autumnreign.livejournal.com

I know there's one question that's been nagging at me. Do you even like me? Do you even know who I am? I've only run across you like 8 or so time and whenever I do you're all smiles and you seem really cool but we've never talked, so I have no idea.

This totally sounds like "..but enough about me lets talk about you. What do you think of me?" Sorry about that. I'm really not that self centered. I just want to know if I can consider us friends - because for all that I know nothing about you, I still think you're the shisnit.

And, if the answer to this question turns out to be a good one, then I reserve the right to ask a cooler question later.

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what is your favorite book of all time?

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blondeamazon.livejournal.com

Where would you like to ultimately settle down, be it to raise a family, or whatever?

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(i've had a couple, so hopefully this all will make sense)

my current theory is that i'm a shy extrovert with social anxiety.
what i love about my social life are the wonderful and inspiring people in it. i think the world of the people that surround me and can't fathom what such great people see in me.
what i hate about my social life is that i tend to think that if someone doesn't seek me out, they don't want me around, and that background thought has a significant effect on my interactions with people.
and i definately am a social creature in that i know the quite well what "cabin fever" means and it takes me about a week to get there. now, if i could break out of my shell and be more socially able, i'd prolly be a happier/healthier person.

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you may or may not be able to relate to this.

growing up in moscow, i was never russian, i was a jew.
i didn't know what the word bog meant, or anything about religion, but from when i could first understand the concept, i was told that i wasn't russian.

when i moved to america, i was told that i am russian, because that's where i came from.
in the jewish community, i was told that i'm not jewish, because i was not/am not practicing.
and i'm not american, because i never watched sesame street, never ate cereal with milk as a child, never did such a huge number of things that american culture is made of.

so what am i?

to me, i'm jewish because that is my heritage. my great grandparents chose the party over religion, as many other jews did at their time - it was a jewish cultural phenomenon. i'm jewish because i respect the and that heritage - and to me, respect is kinda like the glue that holds my universe together.

do i want to be jewish? i don't know. i do know that i don't know what it would be like to be something/someone else.

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i was born in russia; my mother and i moved to the states when i was 10. i learned russian first, and am still fluent, at the vocabulary level of a well-read third grader.

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you don't ask the easy questions.

the vauge answer: lately, i've been toying with one thought, but that thought needs a fair amount of research and might end up being more of a commitment then i could muster. and, since it'd require a BA first, i've been taking my time.

the practical answer: i'm not sure what growing up is anymore, or maybe i've lost hope that i'll get there some day. i do know that i don't like feeling helpless/lost, and at the moment, seeing where that momentum will carry me doesn't sound like a bad idea.

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i'm an english major. i completed most of my required classes very early on and have been taking electives since then. i'm probably picking up a psych minor, partially because of my interest in psychology and partially because i work better/harder when i have concrete goals.

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i fugured out who you are : )

i've only met you a few times, so i don't really know you. you're a very smily and friendly person, which resonates with me - but, i don't really know you.

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*blinks* really?

the master and margarita.

there are many things i love about spending time with you and your mom, but on the list is the number of references to the book that get thrown around in conversation.

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i don't have a specific geographical place in mind.

when i close my eyes, i see a large house, with wooden walls and lots of windows, where friends are happy to gather, that is close enough to a metropolitan city that life if never too far away and sunshine & greenery outside those windows.

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i knew that :) hehe just checking

xo

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i would say more like a well-read high schooler, actually. wink wink ;)

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that was very well-put and the closest thing to what i would have answered. actually, i can't even think of what i would add for myself. i think the fact that so many people in our past/culture had to deny their heritage and religion is reason enough for us to embrace it. power in reconstituting the wealth of knowledge/history of one's people. that and all the good grub :)

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had to deny = were denied the RIGHTS to their heritage/culture/religion is more like it. bleh.

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i think the fact that so many people in our past/culture had to deny their heritage and religion is reason enough for us to embrace it

actually, that isn't how i meant it at all.

from what i know, my great grandparents actively chose the party over judaism. and it was far from uncommon at the time and place - from what i understand, after the 1890's, a large portion of russian jews immigrated, converted or joined the communisms. in that light, the choice my great grandparents made didn't make them any less jewish.

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just because i said hahel' doesn't mean my vocabulary level can match a high school students' ; )

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actually, that isn't how i meant it at all.

precisely, that's how i meant it ;) that was probably the one thing i could add - mine being a different situation, i guess. what i meant is that i could relate to the other parts of what you said. maybe i wasn't clear about that.

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hehehe i accidentally cursed in russian to my mom yesterday, it was a real freudian slip and she laughed her ass off

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i can almost hear that laughter! (and i associate it with her holding a glass of wine)(your mom is so my substitute mommy!) - what was it that you said?

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at first

sol3 said "

kittypie and i bet that would be your answer : )" and in my current state, i interpreted that to mean you thought i'd answer with something else

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autumnreign.livejournal.com

Ok, well then let me introduce myself.

Hi. My name is Jessie. We have allot of mutual friends. I've seen you around here and there and I get the feeling that you're a very cool person.

Do you have any hobbies? What sort of thing do you like to do?

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i don't understand this. so if your ancestors were denied the right to perform some bizarre ritual (like slaughtering chickens, draining their blood into a dish and using it to make bread), you would feel that it's a reason for you to embrace it? Do you want to vindicate any right that was denied to your ancestors?

in other words, if you ancestors were NOT denied any rights, would you want to be jewish, anyway, and what would it mean to you?

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i see what you're trying to do here but - no offense, i don't think this is an appropriate question in regards to my personal situation.

thousands of years of racism and oppression and the fact that my ancestors/family not only couldnt practice their religion openly a lot of the time but a) couldn't own land, were sent to concentration camps and killed for being who they are ethnically and religiously and were denied basic human rights... yeah all this makes me want to embrace my culture and ethnicity rather than deny it.

i am jewish ethnically and culturally, and i think if my ancestors were practicioners of Voodoo, who were also oppressed in their day, i would embrace that too. not necessarily follow it, but embrace the fact that THATS WHO I AM. this doesn't apply to everyone and everything so i don't think there is really a point to what you are implying...

it's funny, yes, but its not that kind of situation where you could theorize it to death and insert vaguely absurd substitutions to make a point.

if my ancestors had always been allowed to be who they are and were allowed basic human rights... then i probably wouldn't even be living in this country.

we came here for basic freedoms: for freedom to be who we are without having to change our last names in order to work (which both my mom and my grandmother did for professional purposes, mind you) and to be able to have the right to choose to do what we wanted.

if we were allowed all these things in my former country... we probably would have stayed there and i really can't tell you what my answer to this question would have been. every situation is different, and i can't put some sort of general answer out there to satisfy your curiosity.

this isn't about vindication. this is about being able to embrace who you were born to be for the simple reason that those who came before you couldn't. and that maybe i am embracing it also because i want to.

personally, i am agnostic, if this has anything to do with anything.

thanks for asking :)

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my mom just got a new car (honda civie!) and i took it out for a spin the other night with erik. i told her (in russian) not to worry because i won't "hit it". hehe. now you can figure out what i said wrong? hehe....

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first of all, allow me to apologize if my questions have offended you in any way. i certainly didn't mean to doubt or ridicule you.

i feel very sympathetic toward your feelings - obviously, since i come from the same background as you, i understand the difficulties your ancestors have endured. That said, it's honorable and proper to recognize their existence by taking in some of your heritage. i do not want to reduce their suffering, or encourage you to forget that.

However, my question addresses something else. You were born jewish, with a lot of baggage. But for that heritage, would you CHOOSE to be jewish? Not for the sake of the people before you, not because you were born this way, not because you came to this country or because your parents have endured a lot. Would you choose to be jewish, if you were NOT jewish?

i actually WANT to hear the theoretical answer as to why people WANT to be jewish. We all feel that it's a part of our heritage, and it's great to stand on the tank and wave that flag...especially, now that we can, while our parents couldn't. Is there anything more in being jewish? Why does being jewish attract YOU, independently of your past?

P.S. i apologize in advance. i am the kind of person who enjoys theorizing to death and coming up with vaguely absurd substitutions to make a point.

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When i close my eyes, i also see myself in Texas or Oklahoma! :-)

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sorry if i was defensive.

i guess it annoyed me that you assumed that i meant jewish in the religious way when i meant it in the cultural way. i would choose to be in this culture and ethnicity because i think its very rich and interesting and full of wonderful traditions and art and literature.

i think as a people, jews have a fascinating culture and history and i would want to be a part of that.

the religion i think is another subject all together. i dont identify with it at all, even though i had a bat mitzvah here, but i think it has its positive values and everything... i just don't like the fact that in some respects it's dogmatic. i like the spirituality elements and think they're interesting but, again, i can't really identify with that at all... and choose to be myself, be agnostic and be spiritual in my own private way.

hope that answers your questions... but maybe they dont really apply to me. i shouldve been more specific in my initial response to elvendoll's comment, and i didnt realyl mean to be defensive. i think i was reacting from my gut and didn't think about the fact that not everyone knows what i'm talking about when i am being vague myself!

hehe :)

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Here's a question for the both of you:

Judaism is a religion - a dogma, a belief system, a set of riruals that make up it's general spirituality.
Judaism is a culture - it's a lifestyle, a set of values and behavior patterns, and a cultural background that binds its members.

A lot of non-religious Jews identify with the culture but not the religion. But, what about a spiritual connection to the culture? Is that real? How does it fit in with the other two?

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is there another group of people with a fascinating culture and history that you would want to be a part of? imagine that you are completely clean - you can be chinese, roman, american, etc.
why would you pick being jewish?

i tend to think of judaism as having three parts - faith, traditions/rituals, and comrehensive logical system of values. Being agnostic myself, i do not appreciate the faith, and only recognize some of the traditions that make sense. The system of values (to me) is something completely fascinating, just and efficient, and i wish more people would study and subscribe to it. :-)

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*blink*

There's metropolitan cities in Texas and Oklahoma?

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what do you see the system of values as being?

how do you perceive the differences in the exercised system of values between conservative judaism and hasidism?

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i think i JUST posted something similar to what you wrote. :-)
we've gotta start doing work instead of writing to LJ!

The spiritual connection is, in my opinion, two-fold. If you have faith, then all the values and rituals that you subscribe to also possess a deep spiritual value - they are given to you by the Creator and you get closer to the Creator through fulfilling them. If you do not believe in the Creator, you spiritually connect to your "people" through those values and rituals.

The best example of that spiritual connection, in my jewish identity, is how strong and emotional my response to jewish music is. i have no idea why, and where it is from, but i strongly feel weird things when i hear Hatikva and the like.

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you'd be surprised to find out what the children have built in the corn!

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thank you.

you're right, we're coming from similar places - you've just put into words what i'd been clumsy about feeling out.

and i feel the same about the music. so much so that i stopped going to one shul because they decided to have a chorus - and that, in place of a cantor, didn't sound like a jewish service to me.

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i don't understand your first question.

as for the differences, i don't know enough about hasidism to knowingly discuss it. i would imagine that most of the values are the same, and the difference is just in practical exercise of rituals.

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words are my specialty, after all. :-)

it's interesting how we associate some things with being authentically jewish, whereas in reality, they are products of mere practice. for example, the practice of wearing a kipa only emerged in the middle ages, yet we undoubtedly associate someone in a kipa with a more traditional level observance. So, connection to a jewish cantor or jewish chorus might actually be results of practice, and not of some connection to judaism.

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i agree with you on finding the system of values (generally) being really interesting and "making sense"... and being really the core of western civilization as we know it.

i don't know what i would pick if i could pick any culture to be a part of... they're all interesting in their own way. i am not saying being jewish is best by any means.

the thing about being jewish that fascinates me is that it is the culture of the constantly oppressed, that seemed to flourish regardless of the political and cultural limitations its people were faced with. that is really interesting to me. one of the biggest things i actually appreciate about it is the importance of education. i think this is a key factor in why i like it so much. that and the food :) hehe...

anyway ironically enough, i am sort of a neo-luddite (no joke) and would prefer to live in a world that is omni-cultural and has no specific limits or boundaries... but then again i am also an idealist :) i would prefer cultural evolution over these things anyway. but while i'm here, i have to be comfortable in my own skin.

i also indentify with immigrants in america more than any other group in general. my friends have always been immigrants and i have had a much more difficult time relating to people who aren't.

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i think a spiritual connection to a culture can be real if you feel bound to people in a spiritual way. the people making up the culture, that is. especially if you feel a bond to them that is different from the bond you feel with people of other cultures. i think that human bonds can be spiritual (i dont know what else you would call them if not that) as well as physical. you can feel a bond with people of similar roots as you even if you've never met them.

i think it is important, however, to extend those bonds to people in other cultures so that you don't feel trapped within the confines of the system you were born into.

i don't know if i would feel anything about the culture if i wasn't born into it. who knows.

a lot of the religion deals with being just and moral and helping your family and community, and i think that works hand in hand with this aforementioned "spiritual" connection. i think the set of values stems from the religion, which was initially used as a way to organize/control/educate the people... but has now been sort of absorbed into the culture. does that make any sense?

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That's pretty neat - i agree with many things, and although i don't understand what neo-luddite is, i think i want to be that.

as a historian, i despise nationalism and envision a world where people will not need to assert their self-worth via national identity. in that sense, i think the "nation" that came closest to this self-image populates Holland. That is, so far, the most cosmopolitan, liberal and accepting nation i've ever seen. Possibly, the weed has something to do with it.

btw, add me to your friends. :-)

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will add when i get home :)

a luddite is a word used for people who are sort of anti-technology, and the irony is that i am studying graphic design and am a geek :) hehe. i think there was a political group who called themselves the luddites in the early 19th century who opposed the industrial revolution thinking it would produce job loss.

holland is a great example, but lately i've been doubting that due to the violenced aimed at people (like that guy, i forget his name, who was running for gov't and was assassinated because he was anti-immigration...ie anti-muslim!) like theo van gogh who are fighting conservatives on free speech (and fighting any change to holland's liberal political system)....

but that's besides the point. yes, it probably is the weed. as bill hicks said, drugs were put on this earth to help us evolve!

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btw i oversimplified that theo comment because i don't even want to get into it right now, it is such a complex event... anyway you get the point. some people just don't want to mesh :(

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Great qoute - thank you!

technology is good. the way it's applied is not so good. modern technology, for example, leads to global democratization, which is not necessarily good.

you seem well-informed about the state of affairs in Holland! there was an article in the Economist this week, i think, about another political murder - a director who was making a movie about the first murder that you mentioned was just shot and stabbed.

the closing sentence of that article was that it's time for Holland to pressure the immigrants to adopt its liberal views. Somewhat a contradiction, wouldn't you say?

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that article was about theo van gogh. he is that guy who was just murdered, the great grandson (or something like that) of vincent van gogh's brother, theo. he was the director that made a film called Submission, about Islamic womens sexuality rights (or lack thereof) and oppression... also made a film about the politician that was murdered... and then was subsequently murdered. ack.

i listen to a lot of NPR :)

the contradiction is true... but even sadder is the fact that if those immigrants don't adopt more liberal views, it would change the makeup (political and cultural) makeup of holland. and for a country of that size (and liberal...ism. hehe), this is dangerous. at least for the majority (obviously not the immigrants.) and when they say immigrants, they really mean religious ones, and mainly muslims.

blah.

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